Episode 66: AI is a Tool, Not the Land Broker | Guest Steve Atkinson
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Welcome to the REALTORS® Land Institute Podcast, the Voice of land, the industry's leading land real estate organization.
Justin Osborn: This is Justin Osborn, accredited land consultant with the Wells Group in Durango, Colorado. On today's episode of The Voices of Land podcast, we're joined by Steven Atkinson of Fay Ranches, who's been helping clients buy and sell ranches, farms, and lifestyle properties in Utah and Idaho since 2010. From multi-thousand-acre ranches to lodges and complex 1031 exchanges, Steven is a Utah State grad, a former collegiate track athlete, and a passionate advocate for innovating the land industry. Lately, though, he's been making his mark in a specific arena, teaching AI workshops for the RLI Colorado chapter and the National Land Conference, and building his own land industry software called Pathcrest. We're excited to pick his brain about where AI is taking the land business. Welcome to the podcast, Steve.
Steve Atkinson: Hey, thanks for having me. It's great to be here.
JO: Yeah, I'm excited, man. I sat in your class at National Land Conference down in San Antonio last March, and there was probably 100 people in the room, and we were all pretty mesmerized as all the tricks that you had in your toolbox. But looking forward to kind of diving a little deeper with you today.
SA: Yeah, no, it's definitely a fun tool. They're fun conversations to have for sure.
JO: So you've been in the land business for 16 years or so. Have you always kind of been on the front end of technology while you've been a land broker, or is this kind of new since AI's been instigated?
SA: Well, I'll start with when I was a kid. I have two older brothers, and for instance, it might be a simple task as cleaning up the yard and all working together. And eventually my two older brothers would say, "Steve, stop trying to figure out a better way and just come do it and we'll get done." And so that's always been in my personality. And even in college, at the time... I have a degree in entrepreneurship, if you can believe it or not. So I love innovating in whatever I'm working in. And that's, I mean, what a great opportunity and day and age we live in right now to do that.
JO: Well, that's exciting, man. Yeah, it sounds very similar to my son. He's shown up at some of the RLI events, and he's studying entrepreneurship right now in college. And man, we used to have that exact same conversation, just like, "Get your chores done. Quit trying to figure out a better way to do it."
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SA: Yeah, no, sometimes I put several hours into a two-hour job. Other times I build processes and then it's smoother for the future.
JO: That's awesome, man. Well, what's some of the stuff that you're kind of seeing moving and shaking right now in the farm and ranch business where AI can be implemented?
SA: You know, and that's... What an open question there. There's really, you can look at it from, which I think most of your audience, if I'm not mistaken, is the land broker, with some landowners and stuff that follow you. So I'll answer it more towards land brokers. And if they haven't heard it, I'd be surprised, but most of us have heard, AI is not replacing agents, but the agents using AI will, or something along those lines, we hear that a lot. And it's just like every other industry. When I first started, and I've worked with my father all these years doing land, and we work really well being from two different generations, we connect with a lot of folks. But I've seen the mapping evolve, and hearing stories before I was licensed, you know, the industry had to change from you had a brick-and-mortar where it was in town and you had the foot traffic and it was location, location, location and people came because there was no repository online to find listings and they had to come to you to get the information to begin with. And we've had to adapt to deal with that. And you watched agents that were still faxing a couple years ago information and then those that really grasped the technology and pushed internet and then social media. I mean, you really look at the last 15 years and there's been a lot of technology that agents have had to adapt to. And so AI really is another... Well, it's a very accelerated technology where we're all gonna have to adapt because it is affecting us and helping us be more efficient with our work. So anyway, sorry, what a long-winded answer, but hopefully I got it. [chuckle]
JO: Yeah, no, that's definitely a great segue. And you're right, I mean, I think Brian Buffini, I was listening to one of his podcasts the other day and he was going off on the agents that are not using AI and said it word for word just like you did, that it's not AI that's gonna replace the realtors. It's the realtors that are using AI and using it well that are gonna replace the ones that aren't. And we're already starting to see that, I think, with a little bit of correction in the industry across most of the United States. Every market's obviously different, but out here in the West, we've got a whole lot more listings than we've had in a long time. Inventory's up and buyers kind of have a pick of the litter right now on most of their stuff. And so those agents that don't know how to market a property, don't know how to price a property correctly, don't know how to use AI to their benefit are the ones, I think, they're gonna be hanging up their shingles here before too long.
SA: Well, I think... And I think it's so interesting too. You also look at the day and age we're in right now where there's so much land and wealth transfer from the older generation to the younger generation. And it's so interesting to me. I look at some of the most experienced and most successful brokers and it's been that connection, that human-to-human connection. And that's one of the things I love about the land industry is because that's valued, and I think it's also really healthy for us to have that human-to-human connection for sure. But now those that are willing to embrace that technology now are able to take care of all the stuff they've hated; sitting at their desks, doing all that paperwork, doing all the copy, doing all of that kind of stuff. They are now empowered to be able to do so much while at the same time, what are we gonna see with some of the rising generation that comes up that actually doesn't like to get on the phone with people, doesn't like to meet face-to-face? Are the younger brokers that are embracing AI technology, are they going to be able to reach them easier? What an interesting timeline we're living in right now because the technology is gonna affect both generations so differently.
JO: Yeah, that's a great point. And I think you gotta be able to do it all. I mean, I've got clients right now, their preferred method of communication is text. I've got other clients, their preferred method is a phone call. I've got other clients that, obviously, they're elderly, but I have to drive by their house every time we're gonna have a conversation. And so you've gotta be equipped to still handle all methods of communication, I think, or else you're gonna be missing out on a certain generation.
SA: Oh, yeah.
JO: And you talk about that wealth that's transferring, man, there's a lot of it right now that's moving from the baby boomer generation down to the kids and grandkids.
SA: Yeah. Oh, for sure. So, yeah, it's interesting times, for sure.
JO: You know, one thing I've personally dealt with a lot just this past week is communicating with sellers right out of the gate. I come in, and these are past clients, these aren't new people that don't know me very well, but I come in right out of the gate, sit down with a marketing plan, sit down with a pricing strategy, they know I've been doing this a long time, they trust me. After we go through everything, they still say, "Yeah, but here's what ChatGPT says we should do." And I'm like, "Guys, ChatGPT doesn't know anything about selling a rural property in Durango, Colorado," or this last one was in Pagosa Springs. And like, yeah, that would work if we were selling a home in a gated community in downtown Denver maybe, but it doesn't work here. And I've had two, like I said, good clients that have done a lot of business with me that I've had to really spend way more time convincing to trust me instead of AI. And so how do you respond to that? Give me some counsel.
SA: Yeah. There's so many answers. And the trick is, I think, explaining it to them in a way that makes sense. From a more technical standpoint, there's all kinds of questions. Are you using the free version? Is the information that you're running off of old? 'Cause some of these models, they keep their knowledge base up to date as of 12 or 16 months ago. And so AI also is very eager to please. They're almost sycophantic. And so if you're wanting information and it knows it can present you with the information but doesn't have the data points, it'll make up the data points. And so I find that a lot. There are sometimes my AI is smooth sailing and it accomplishes what I want, and there's other times I'm hitting my head against the wall being like, "Can you not get done what I want done?" And so I think it's really dangerous. I could give examples of, I've asked personal advice and sometimes I'll take it across two or three different AIs to get to where I feel like I'm getting the genuine answer I'm looking for. So I think, and you'll find disclaimers on all these AIs, my advice to them would be, you've gotta be careful, AI is taking from a general knowledge base. Like you said, it doesn't know the market as well as I do because a lot of the information isn't even online, especially our sales comps in these non-disclosure states. AI can't even find those. So it'll have good generalized knowledge, but it always needs to be fact-checked. Even for the agents using AI, they know that they're going to there. They are gonna get 80, 90% of the way there with AI, but that last 10, 20% makes a big difference. So all that being said, if you have a client that is leaning heavily on AI, you just need to caution them and say, "Hey, that's a great starting point, but that's not a final answer. That's definitely not where you're gonna end up."
JO: Well, that's a good point. I guess I didn't realize that eager to please, making up statistics or information. I thought that most of the models were just as accurate as the data that was input into it, but I didn't realize that it was that eager to please. And so that's a great point. And then so did I hear you say correctly, like 16 months is kind of the circle right now on how updated things are?
SA: Okay. Yeah. So if you actually go into your AI... And I've got one right here, and I type in, "How recent is your knowledge base?" Or, "What is the date of your information that you're pre-trained on?" You'll find they do two different things. So for instance, you have... If you find out up to what date its model is trained on, this one I'm looking at right now says, "My core pre-trained knowledge base extends up to March 2026." So April, May, June, July. I mean, we're four months behind. I've had some that are over a year old. And then, but they do combine it with live web searches. So a real-life example that I've used sometimes... And because we're seeing so many technologies and so many softwares come out right now, sometimes I'll go into my AI and try to learn about that new software, but it's not part of their pre-trained knowledge. They don't know. So I'll ask for a methodology, and it's giving me, especially when you're trying to stay up to date on AI methods, it's teaching you something that worked 12 months ago. So I'll have to tell it, "Go search the internet, go search for live data," or I'll give it the link to the new software and have it go to that website and search it because its information just isn't correct. So I think, yeah, to your point, I guess a lot of people probably don't know that, that some of the models they're working with, it's dealing off old information.
JO: Yeah, no, I didn't know that. So yeah, that's great. And I mean, I would imagine you're probably up to date more than anybody. So to hear that the stuff you're searching is still four months old and has to go search online for up-to-date information, yeah, that's definitely ammunition that I can have in my toolbox for my clients. And so I greatly appreciate that.
SA: Well, and think about it. You talk about with your clients dealing with AI too, right? How dangerous can that be for them? If they're wanting to know what the latest water rights law is that was passed in their state or what's gonna happen with their water rights, and if they don't prompt it right and they're getting old information on something that's developing, that could really lead them astray.
JO: Yeah, yeah, that's a great point. I mean, yeah, keep your attorney still handy, you know.
SA: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, for sure.
JO: Now, what percentage of the industry do you think, I mean, obviously we'll have to shoot from the hip here, but I think a lot of brokers are still having a lot of conversation day-to-day. They're in the side-by-side, they're in the pickup truck with their clients. And then there's another percentage of brokers that is spending more time having AI run their business. Do you have any idea? Maybe that's a poll we could take with RLI. Like, what percentage? Is it 50/50 right now? Is it 80/20 that are kind of having AI run their business more than them actually physically meeting clients? Or is that even a fair question to ask?
SA: So how many of the agents are actually using AI to run their business versus not?
JO: Yeah, and maybe run their business isn't a fair question. I just... Like, if you look at my calendar, I'm interactive, I'm meeting clients, I'm out in the field, I've got a great business partner that kind of does the admin behind the scenes. But I'm just curious how to figure out those of us brokers that have been doing this for over 20 years, if the majority of them have shifted and are doing things different than I am with, like I said, being in the truck, being in the side-by-side on a daily basis, or if they've kind of figured out like, "Yeah, Justin, that's old school, man. You don't need to be filling up your diesel truck at $5 a gallon. You need to be doing it this way."
SA: Great question. It's been interesting for me to kind of watch, and actually some of the recent numbers that I'm looking at are different than what I was seeing previously. I'm starting to see buyers... And hopefully this answers your question, if not at least in a roundabout way, we're starting to see more buyers use AI all the time to where they aren't even maybe going to a website, they're just going to their AI and saying, "Hey, find me XYZ aspects for a property that I'm looking for in such and such state." But yet I felt like a lot of agents weren't actually using AI to make their listings found or using it as productivity tools. Some of the stuff I'm looking at right now, there was an RPR survey of real estate professionals and they found that 82% of agents currently use AI in their business, 92% either use it or plan to. And they're showing that 48%, a NerdWallet Harris Poll study found that 48% of prospective home buyers plan to use it or are already using it. But that's home search too. Land is different, we all know that. Our clients... We, I think, are more prone to run into a client that would just as soon keep a flip phone rather than a smartphone or that don't want to be at the desk at all. And so it's evolving as we're seeing more buyers start to use it and maybe the rancher or farmer landowner isn't using it, but they're gonna have their son or daughter jump on AI to search for what they need. But as far as agents adopting it, I think the pace is growing, but I don't think it's fair to say that, hey, 80, 90% of agents are using it because they might not be using it effectively. I think most of us can say we've been on chat, as they say, instead of ChatGPT, and they've been looking around and they've prompted something, probably using the free version. So all of us have chatted with it, but how many people are actually building productivity tools with it? How many people are having it summarize and draft their emails? How many people are having it build their slide decks or a custom software tool for your office? And there was a great piece of data that I saw from a podcast I really enjoy following, and this is several months old, but it did talk about... It showed in a nice visual graph all the squares of so many people. Each square represented like 10 million people. And it still was surprising how many people weren't actually diving into AI effectively. So does that kind of answer your question where you're going towards how many agents are using it?
JO: Yeah, it does. And the word effectively, I think is huge because, I mean, even in our industry, right, you've got typically in most areas 20% of the brokers doing 80% of the business. And so I think if you apply that same law, I forget the actual name of that law, but if you apply that to the AI industry, there's probably only 20% of the people that are using it, using it effectively.
SA: And I would say even less than that in our land industry. That's just my feeling, right? I don't have any data to support that other than... Yeah, that's the thing. It's evolving so fast and I have a hard time keeping up with it. I think everybody does unless you're gonna digest it every minute of every day. The tools are just growing so fast and what you can do with it.
JO: Well, and you've got a new tool, right? The PathCrest, is that a software that you've created? Tell me a little bit about that.
SA: Yeah. So pathcrest.io, we've had some beta users and companies looking at it. It'll open up to where anybody can sign up pretty soon. But basically what I found is there's kind of... Okay, there's the chat that you can do with your AI and just kind of talk with it. And then you can start integrating different folders and kind of keep a repository of information that's bundled together. And then you can go one step further and you can start to train it and give it specific skills or specific repeatable tasks that it can accomplish or do. And then you can give it access to your files on your computer and have it manipulate those, and you can start having it connect to your other softwares and tools that you're using on your computer. And then you can start actually going a step further and you can do your own software. You can do your own coding. And so as I've kind of looked through these different phases, what I realized is I was chatting and I was building these folders and there was so much context and I have to scroll clear back because I remembered there was a version I liked better or you're prompting things all the time. And I thought, this is crazy and I want to try what's next. I hear people are doing the coding and everything else. And so several months ago, I went ahead and started building my own software to do exactly what I want. It's kind of just having like a tailored suit or a custom fit pair of boots, right? Something that's made for you.
SA: So anyways, long story short, that was kind of the path of me evolving to building something I wanted for my sellers and my buyers, a tool to make me more effective. AI is incredible at synthesizing data, especially when you just give it raw data, a ton of it, and it can make connections and tie things together and be able to provide you insights that you wouldn't do, it's excellent at that. We all love the parlor tricks of the video and the pictures and those have all been fun to play with, we've all done that, I think. But what I did is I essentially created a base hub for my buyers and sellers. Not a CRM, something that kind of bolts onto your CRM for your active clients you're working with. So let me walk you through just two seconds of what I do with it. I upload all my information. I look at our job as land agents, when we're listing a property, it breaks down to three pieces. We need to compile and gather real-life data, especially with these farmers and ranchers, their data doesn't exist on a form, it exists in their head, they're doing it the way grandpa did it, right?
JO: Right.
SA: We have to get that real-world data and then we have to make it communicable is the second step. You gotta make it so that you can get that to the right person. And so our job as agents is sometimes we find out stuff they didn't know. Sometimes we understand their property and their water better than they did. And then the last step is taking that communicable information to the right place and right time to the right person. And that's what brings the buyer. So to connect that buyer and seller, that's gotta happen, that information. So, essentially my tool... So, PathCrest, allows me to build that repository of information. It makes it communicable. I can manipulate it in lots of ways, create all kinds of copy from a just-listed email to a marketing proposition of where they're gonna find their buyers and where their buyers are coming from and everything in between. And it also helps me create those documents, those flyers. It's on brand, it's on point based on the settings I put into it. It'll also create documents for me. And then for buyers, I can kind of do the same thing. I can brain dump everything into a buyer site and create market watches. I can also have it search things that I'm expected to stay up on. So maybe I want to stay up on the water rights in my state or county, or maybe I want to look at days on market. Maybe I want to look at whatever other industry knowledge I should be up on, and it can kind of search and stay up to date for me on that and help me out. So that's probably... Once again, my answers, I feel like I'm so long-winded. I'm sorry, but it does so much and it's been so fun to build something that is custom-fit for me. And other agents then said, "Hey, I'd like to try it," and it's just kind of grown from there.
JO: Nice. Okay. So yeah, I mean, basically sounds like what you described is stuff that a lot of us are doing on a daily or at least weekly basis where you're sending out the auto-notifications when properties come on the market for certain buyers. And I mean, that's huge. And so is your software, is it searching, I guess the entire internet for those listings, or is it going to certain websites, or how's it designed so that to make sure it's not missing one of the properties that may be posted on somebody's website but not somebody else's?
SA: Right now, we as agents try to put our listings in as many places online as we can so that buyers can search and find them online. So our methodology of finding properties for buyers is already structured and built. So mine searches the internet like a buyer would. It goes out, scrapes through the internet, goes through the websites, and tries to find those listings. It's kind of the same reason why people are building humanoid robots. Is there a more effective robot than something in humanoid form? No, because our world was built to interact with humans. And so same thing, our listing and marketing is currently built so that a buyer can go on Google, search, find the property. So it searches that way.
JO: Okay. Gotcha. And then is it... This is something that's gonna be available for land brokers, I take it.
SA: Oh, yeah.
JO: Is it a monthly fee? Is it a one-time fee? Is it a per listing? I guess it wouldn't be per listing because it's kind of like a file cabinet here that dump all your data in. Tell me a little bit how it's set up.
SA: So it is set up, there is just a plug-and-play, a universal fit. You can sign up, pay like 90 bucks a month and get access to the entire tool and be able to run with it. Or working with your brokerage specifically, we can actually build something for you that's on point with your brand that's tailored for your company. Have a couple of those that I've done already where they might have a specific voice, they might have specific data points, they might have specific copy or documents that they want to create. I think most of us all have or have had a data input form that's specific for our company, stuff that... A checklist that we can go and mark off when we go meet with our sellers. So if you want something completely customized, then we look at a one-time setup fee for that. But that's powerful too because then your agents in your company can share listings back and forth. You can share it with your secretary, admin. They can go in and be able to have access to that information. So I have taken more of the customized route because I think that's gonna be of more value to us. The other option, you can find all these solutions. You can go sign up for 10 different AI tools if you want, but it's not all gonna be in one concentric place.
JO: Yeah, that makes sense, definitely. Now, you taught at the Colorado chapter and at National Land Conference. Do you have other teaching gigs lined up with some of the other RLI chapters across the country?
SA: No, it's been on my list to do that. I really like connecting with agents. As you know, this industry, and especially with RLI, the networking and the relationships are one of the greatest values that I feel and that I see from most brokers. So, definitely would love to do more of it just because it's... Once again, nothing beats the face-to-face with folks.
JO: Right. Yeah. Well, what a great opportunity. So, some of our chapter leaders that are listening, you guys should definitely follow up with Steven here and have him come educate your chapter because it was really, really good for us at Colorado when he came. Steve, anything last-minute topics here you'd like to throw out, make sure our listeners walk away with before we wrap up?
SA: Yeah, I think it's the same advice that I said we should give to our sellers and buyers. You should use AI to empower you and get you 90% of the way there, but don't just push it out. Please don't just push it out. Make sure, make sure you read it because when you put that information out there, it's... I mean, they're gonna come after you. If you're falsely advertising, they're not gonna come sue ChatGPT because that's the AI tool you used. You're still on the hook. The buck stops with you. So, my final piece of advice is use it, but make sure you're still the leader. Make sure you're still the one in charge of the information.
JO: I'm laughing here because when you said push it out, it reminded me of something that we just recently had happen where another realtor, residential realtor, I won't say their name or what company they're with, but it was very clear that they just pushed it out straight to the MLS. They literally cut and pasted all of the AI text in their public remarks, including the second section that says, like, "Or you could consider saying it this way. Or you could consider saying it this way." So there's like three versions that say "Or consider revising," and we were just laughing so hard because it's like, man, you're clearly just cutting and pasting everything it gives you without even proofing it, without even editing it. And it was like, man, there's still gotta be that human touch.
SA: Well, and some people are being destroyed online from people that when they see AI, they call out AI slop. And you can get nailed. So I mean, still be the professional.
JO: Totally agree. Well, thank you for joining us today, Steve. If our listeners wanted to get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to do that?
SA: Yeah, directly on my cell is always welcome, 208-766-3625. Or I check my brokerage email the most: satkinson@fayranches.com. So also, I'm happy to collaborate on deals across states with other RLI members. Like I said, I appreciate the relationships.
JO: Yeah, it's a great network, that's for sure. Well, folks, for more expertise on land real estate topics, be sure to check out the RLI blog, follow us on social media, and of course, tune in for upcoming episodes of The Voices of Land podcast.
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