Episode 51: 1031 Exchanges for Mineral Rights | Guests Troy Eckard, Founder of Eckard Enterprises

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Welcome to the REALTORS^® Land Institute Podcast, the Voice of land, the industry's leading land real estate organization.

Justin Osborn: Welcome to the REALTORS^® Land Institute podcast, the Voice of Land, the industry's leading land real estate organization. This is Justin Osborn Accredited Land Consultant with the Wells Group in Durango, Colorado.

On today's episode of the Voices of Land podcast, we're going to be speaking with Troy Eckard. Troy has four decades of oil and gas expertise to lead Eckard Enterprises in making direct ownership of oil and gas assets possible for high net worth investors. Since 2019, his company has placed 900 million in capital across 90 projects. Welcome to the podcast, Troy.

Troy Eckard: Hey, thanks, my friend. I appreciate you having me.

JO: Yeah, I love doing this stuff, man. I think I'm going to get educated today as well as our listeners. And so you're based out of Texas, right? 

TE: Yeah, our main headquarters is in Allen, Texas. Yes, sir.

JO: Okay. Yeah, very familiar with that. I grew up in Rockwall, so. Yeah, that's some family not far from Allen.

TE: Well, it's not like it was when you grew up. I mean, we're about to hit the Oklahoma border. It's kind of gone crazy as far as people moving in. I don't even know if there's that many Texas tags anymore in the car. It seemed like they're all from the West Coast.

JO: Yeah, it's crazy, man. I mean, everywhere we used to duck hunt and deer hunt and hog hunt. There's hospitals and schools and developments out there now.

TE: Yeah, you'd be surprised, Justin. Land that was going for about eight years ago, about 3,000 an acre north of Dallas is 60,000 to 80,000 an acre right now.

JO: Wow. Dang, man. I knew it was getting up over 20, but I didn't know it was pushing 60 to 80. That's nuts.

TE: It's all going to be built in residential, so they've got about $20 billion in IT projects and chip manufacturer in Sherman on the Oklahoma border. So all around the country, everybody's coming and started buying land, doing developments and residential and commercial. So, it exploded about four years ago and you can't find anything for less than, let's say 30,000 acre. And I'm talking like scrub brush you couldn't grow four cows on. It's insane. And it's the entire North Texas area has boomed that way and it's not going backwards. It's just, it's insane.

JO: Well, that's good to know. My grandma's in Sherman and she's got their farm there and so it's definitely appreciated. Which kind of goes in hand in hand with our conversation today because, you know, I'm dealing With a lot of 1031 exchanges. And you know, when we've got these cash poor real estate rich landowners, they're going to be taxed heavily when they go to sell their farms. And so 1031s are a great option, but a lot of them really are too old to deal with buying rental properties, buying investment properties. And that's where you come into play with kind of this other opportunity of 1030 and wanting into mineral rights, which I'd love to know more about.

TE: Yeah. I tell you what's really evolved, Justin, and it's really been interesting. You could not really successfully, in my view do a 1031 exchange from traditional surface real estate into mineral rights up until about eight or nine years ago. And the reason being is you had to, you had to take that nice profit that you made in that real estate hold and transfer to save the capital gains tax by doing a 1031. Well, I don't want to take a winner and go do something speculative or something that's going to be deteriorating the value. Well, you didn't have mineral rights, you could really buy with a lot of confidence that was going to result in successful income producing assets. Because we were drilling vertical wells, kind of like throwing a dart at the dartboard. So now that we drilled, now that we drill horizontal wells and these massive buried Grand Canyons, these things are huge Grand Canyon sized oil and gas traps. Now we're hitting 99.9% of every well that we drill. So, now I can successfully do a 1031 out of my traditional real estate, sell a ranch or a farm or multifamily or self storage, or buy and flip homes.

TE: I can now sell that and successfully do a 1031 into producing income generating oil and gas minerals from day one. And I've got the largest oil companies in the world that have leased it. They're drilling it and I can do without any cost, zero expenses, zero liability. That's just like somebody wrote down a piece of paper said, what's a perfect world for owning an asset? And oil and gas mineral rights today has now evolved as being that perfect passive asset. It makes a perfect 1031 exchange because of what I just described. Problem is, 98% of most people don't have a clue they can do it, they just don't know about it. So, getting the information out is important not only to the agents, but to the owners. Just because it offers another solution.

JO: Yeah. And so, I'm dealing with this right now in Durango. You know, we're A historic town. A lot of our Investment properties are 80 to 100 year old historic homes. The landlords are just sick and tired of all the maintenance that has to go into it. And the renters call in once a month saying this needs to be fixed. So, from my understanding, I can have my seller in Durango sell their duplex. We can then turn around and roll that money into one of your mineral right funds. And all this is on the uppity up and registered with, or I should say identified as okay with the IRS through a 1031 exchange.

TE: Yeah, 100%. That's the nice thing about it is oil and gas is a like kind asset because the IRS has basically declared mineral rights as a deeded piece of property, just like surface. So, what most people don't know in the United States you got three rights when you bought a piece of land. You got the surface rights, you got air rights, and you got mineral rights below the ground. And so you can lease all three or you can sell all three inclusive or exclusive of one another. So there's some ranchers and farmers in Oklahoma and Texas and other oil producing states that they'll own that family farm, but they've sold off the air rights or they've sold off the mineral rights some part or all. And one really has paid attention to it because quite frankly, it wasn't that big a deal 10 years ago. You didn't have these enormous buried Grand Canyons that you had just, I mean, billions of barrels of oil. Really 10 years ago, the only gas we're extracting today wasn't even economically feasible. We didn't know how to get it out. Technology allowed us to solve the problem. So now it truly has opened people's eyes up where they're saying, wait a minute, I own minerals, I own surface, I own air rights. So that's from the asset that your 1031 exchange clients would want to go into is these producing oil and gas rights.

TE: But maybe I own a house, a building, et cetera. I'm like, I don't want to buy into somebody else's expensive house, somebody else's headache, or I don't want to overpay. It's a great way to move it into that same real estate asset class. But do it in a way that's hands off. No bills, no tenants, no landlords, no tenant improvements. Just send me a check every month. And your tenant is Exxon or Chevron or one of the major oil companies. At first most people go, it sounds too good to be true. I mean, surely who can do that? Who can buy... Why does an Exxon buy the minerals? These big old companies, they don't buy minerals. It's just like traditional real estate. Somebody wants to do raw land development. Somebody wants to do entitlement and annexation. Somebody wants to go vertical. Somebody wants to be a property manager. Oil and gas, the same way. Exploration companies want to spend all their money at the drill bit. Mineral right owners want to be the landlord, like a triple net, but with zero cost.

TE: So this just happens to be the same kind of sequential layering in oil and gas as there is in traditional real estate. I like the minerals because, quite frankly, I don't ever have to write another check. I want to just get money every month for the next 25 to 100 years.

JO: So it's really true. Mailbox money.

TE: It is. I'm telling, I've been in investment since 1985. It is the single most passive investment asset class I'd stack it up against anything else anyone has. It's even cheaper than crypto, where you got to pay a fee every time you buy. Because why? At the end of the day, once I own those mineral rights, we're not subject to any liability, we're not subject to any holding costs, we're not subject to property taxes, we're not subject to expenses. We don't have any costs. I've owned them for 30 years. I've never written a check ever for any type of mineral right. The only thing we might be subject to is possibly a partial midstream cost, meaning carrying the gas and all. That's because whoever signed the lease 75 years ago didn't know any better. I might have to pay some severance tax if I'm in Texas, but many states don't have severance tax. So literally, it just comes out of my check. But me writing a check, I've never had to write a check or pay expense holding costs. There's no debt. It's just pure cash. I just get big fat checks every month on every well I own. I own interest in 7,500 wells right now.

JO: So talk to me a little bit about how this is formed. I mean, is this. I'm assuming it's some type of portfolio or fund? Is it strictly oil wells? Is it natural gas? Like, what makes up these portfolios when somebody sells a rental property and rolls it into mineral rights? 

TE: So if you look at it from traditional real estate, and you said okay in Durango, can you tell me the 20 best ranches within two hour drive on Durango? Oh yeah, I can tell you that ranch, this ranch. Were they not for sale? No. What if you could buy royalty rights from the income generated from those top 20 ranches, but you could buy 5 acres in one ranch, 50 acres, another ranch, 10 acres in this ranch and you buy each one of those small selected pieces from those different ranches that are so successful, you put it into a bundle. But we don't do funds, we don't do single entity tax ID entities. We don't do partnerships or LLCs. What we do is we buy those mineral rights, we aggregate them into one offering. Let's say it's a $10 million package and you say, well, I'll put 100,000 in, you'll own 100,000. Basically a 1% of that fund and you own 1% of each one of those individual 20 ranches in my example. And now you get your pro rata share. And the reason why it's important is it allows it to be a 1031 accepted exchange.

TE: Can't go from a 1031 into a partnership. You got to go exchange. All of them are deeded and titled. Our clients buy it through a purchase sale agreement that shows that you own the deeds and titles record in the courthouse. They're yours. We simply manage it for you for free. That allows you to also later on, if you decide, I want to sell my mental rights and go back into traditional real estate because maybe the market's booming and I want to exchange my asset class, you can go ahead and sell those and do another 1031 out of minerals back into traditional real estate. It's just a 1031 back and forth. And what happens for you is because we are so transparent and by allowing our investors to have direct ownership, it allows you to also use our customized proprietary app to sell your minerals amongst our 3,000 millionaire partners. So it's called P2P or partner to partner. So, we have this really liquid alternative asset class designed by about a $3 million capital investment that I made into our app and our exchange. You can get in, you can get out, you can talk to other partners, you can sell to other partners and it just allows you to move and flow back and forth.

TE: It's just, I've been working this for 40 years in the market, just evolved over the last 10 years. And I said everything I've thought about a perfect world has come together. Boom, here we are today.

JO: Well, that's... I'm glad you explained that because that was going to be my next question, is the exit strategy? So, obviously that sounds pretty simple that, all right, if you want to get out, you can sell to somebody else and get out and roll it back into real estate if that's something you chose to do. So, I guess another question that just came to my mind as you were saying that is if you just have, let's say 50 or $100,000 laying around in a money market, you can invest in this, right? We're not strictly limited to selling a rental property, rolling a 1031 exchange. I can move some money out of that money market and invest with you, is that right? 

TE: Yeah, we probably have three types of investments. We have the traditional 1031 exchange. That's probably six to 8% of our total capital commitment each year. And that's just because they don't know it exists. But that market's growing. Probably 70%, believe it or not, Justin is coming from self directed IRAs retirement accounts. Because it qualifies in a retirement account. And people are going, I can't touch it for 20 years. What a better asset to own than no reduction in value compounding monthly income, all tax free for the next 10 or 20 years. We've probably done 70% of our funding from that. And the last one is just from traditional investing where people are just running out of their 1099 income or their W2 income or their investment guys are moving out of Bitcoin or out of stock market and they're just, they're deciding. You know, I'm tired of trying to outrun algorithms. I'd rather just invest in mineral rights and trust. Exxon and Chevron know where to drill and I'd rather own the wells that Exxon owns. I'd rather fuel American economy through drill baby, drill, rather than trying to guess what kind of stock's going to go up or down.

TE: And that's really what's driving the market. Our whole portfolio has exploded over the last five years. We started with 120 partners and did about 18 million the first year. Within two years we're up to 200 million. I think last year we had 240 million. This year I think we'll do 300 to 500 million in acquisitions and drilling and it's almost 99% inbound referrals, calls, references, because people go, "Hey, I've been with Ecker two years. We're doing great results. You ought to put your money with them." We just been really blessed by having a great track record.

JO: Yeah, word of mouth is definitely the best form of advertising. So...

TE: If it's a good word of mouth, Justin. Only if it's good. If it's bad, we have to delete, delete.

JO: Well, that's true. That's a good point. So what is your, I guess, expected average return? I mean, obviously, you know, gotta throw out a disclaimer there that I'm not a financial advisor and everything has risks. But what are you kind of looking at? Is this like a 10% return, a 15% annual return, or what are you expecting? 

TE: So, we took four decades of expertise, we've hired top notch engineers, geologists, and what we've done is we've come up with a financial model. But the premise of our model is we don't buy anything we don't believe we can make 10% of return a year, every year, over a five year average. Now, some portfolios will start off faster just because they may have some brand new wells that are drilled so the income's more loaded to the front end. But after, we think we're over 100 portfolios. Now, after 100 portfolios, we add them all in together. Right now are averaging about 12.8% cash on cash return across the board. That's with about a third of our minerals not even in pay yet. Not in other words, we haven't received the checks yet. We have 7,600 wells. We're probably across 10,000 wells this year. And so that's just on the mineral side. Then on the drilling side, which a lot of our partners want to drill and participate because there's big tax write offs. We're averaging over 30% cash on cash return per year on the drilling side and about 12.7, 12.8% on the mineral side. I believe that in 2025, we'll probably send out between 75 and $100 million in cash out the door to our investing partners this year.

TE: The nice part is when I send out the mineral checks, it's just a green envelope. Here's your check, no bills. Accounting is pretty simple. Exxon gives me a million, I divide it amongst the mineral owners, send you a check. I don't have really any counting other than make sure we got paid the right amount. It's not as easy as I make it sound. We have, you know, eight or nine people in the county. Again, the nice part about you as a partner, whether it's a 1031 or traditional, we do all the management for free. You might say, well, why do you do it for free? I can't get my check till I Process it anyway. And we own between 20 and 30% of everything anyway. So it's really just a matter of a cost of business in order for us to be able to offer this to individual investors who know nothing about oil and gas and are like, I don't mind putting the money in, but hell, I can't track down my minerals. I can't track down the oil company. We'd rather do it to make sure you get paid every dime you're owed and make sure we manage those assets to the maximum value of our own account and that of our investing partners.

JO: So this sounds great. I mean, I'm sitting here thinking, all right, I know, guys, we can do some private lending on land, get 10 to 12% return, but then there's risk associated with that. We got to take the property back and go foreclose on it, four and a half percent in my money market right now, this is almost three times that. What are the pitfalls? What are the challenges or misconceptions, I should say that maybe some investors might be facing when we're hearing this, that we need to think about it? 

TE: Crybabies. So crybabies, crybabies, crybabies. Here's what happens. So I'm really good at real estate. I love buying raw land. I love buying ranches and flipping them. I do private loans. 10, 12%. I can go see the land. I can kick it, touch it, feel it. People are used to what they're used to. So to be able to put a million dollars in the minerals, it's kind of out of your control. You can't sell it immediately. You can't market immediately. You don't have an appraisal value. You sit back and you wait for your checks to come in. You get 12 distributions a year in a 1099. It's about as simple as it gets. Here's your 12 checks in a 1099. But every month, the volume, oil and gas goes up and down, and so does the price of oil and gas. So everybody's real happy in 2021. Going into 2022, they're very happy. Then Russia started the war. We went to $129 a barrel. Checks went through the roof. Gas quadrupled in price. So for the next year, Troy had a statue in the middle park named after me, they were bound down. Hallelujah, Troy's wells and revenue went through the roof.

TE: Then Biden started playing with releasing oil out of the SPR and he suppressed LNG. He suppressed all these other things, used political clout, and he decimated oil and gas prices last year, so their checks were down by 35, 40%. Troy's not so popular anymore. So the reality is this is a asset, it's real estate. And what I know is simple math. February has 10% less days than every other month. When I get my revenue for February's oil and gas sales, which is probably generally going to be around May 10, my check should be down 10% because there's 10% less days. Clients don't see that. They're used to pay me a fixed check every single month. Now what I like is that variable because in wintertime right now we're at 345 natural gas. We could be $6 natural gas. Well, it could be $100 a barrel, it could be 75 a barrel. Over my 30 year career, what I had, what I've trained my brain to do is say, look, this is a five year commitment. But if you want to be candid about it, you got 12 distributions times 25 to 75 years of income with no bills.

TE: So I've got a lot of months that are going to go up and down. I'll take my big time winners and I'll take my averages. But here's the key. Eckard's financial model is based on 60 and 65 dollar oil and three dollar natural gas. We are super conservative because we want to know that in the worst case condition, we're still going to make that 10% return per year or later. Some clients will start off the first 12 months, go, God, I'm only making seven or 8%. Where's that 10%? You didn't look at your model. Well, the model said nine, I'm making eight. Okay, so next year when I make you 18, you're going to call me back and apologize? So that's why I call it crybaby. It's a crybaby syndrome, right? 

JO: Yeah. Well, that makes sense. I mean, we get the same questions in real estate. You know, when I'm selling a property to somebody and they say, okay, you know, what's it going to be worth next year in two years? And like, hold on, time out here. This should be a long term investment. Like if you're thinking about holding this for less than five to seven years, you know, there's no telling because it could be volatile. Could be, you know, totally depending on what's happening with interest rates or where I'm at, you know, if we're having a down snow year, what's the irrigation water going to look like in the summertime? And if I'm trying to sell something that's an irrigated property in a year that they don't have any water rights, it could affect the property value.

TE: What's the cost of capital? 

JO: Exactly. Yeah.

TE: What's interest rates? So I mean, what you're saying is what we deal with, which is understanding this. Look, inflation is here and it's going up. President Trump is saying we're going to grow this economy like never before. Half a trillion dollars for Stargate Manufacturing and everything he's doing. So, you know, you can cut all you want through DOGE, but we have a $1.2 trillion a year interest rate. So, even if he cuts a trillion dollars, we're at even. We still owe 35 trillion. So the truth is he said drill, baby drill. And Exxon CEO all the way down said, we're not drilling baby drill. Because you said out of one side of your mouth, drill, baby, drill. On the other side, you said, I want Russia and Saudi to plummet oil prices to make inflation go away. Huh? We graduated third grade three times. But we're not stupid, okay? The reality is we're not going to go drill, baby drill if you're telling me you're going to sell our best tier 1 assets at lower prices. So, as a mineral owner, I'm very in tune with what the oil companies need for economic metrics. Because why? The greatest profitability in minerals is not commodity prices.

TE: Now watch this. It's activation. You drill one, Exxon drills one well on our minerals. Thousand barrels a day. That's great news. At 70 a barrel, it has one value. At 90 a barrel, it's even better. I'd rather have four wells drilled at $75 a barrel doing a thousand barrels a day than one well drilled at $90 a barrel. Most investors don't understand that. I don't want $90 a barrel, I want $75 a barrel. Because when it gets to 90, 95, they start going to other alternatives like coal and nuclear and other alternative. I want a really happy fat customer that loves 75 to $80 oil, lets the oil companies go drill four and five, six wells at a time. I now have five income generating wells on my property versus one. There's that equilibrium. What Trump wants is for us to drill massive oil and gas wells at cheaper prices. And Exxon says, yeah, we learned that lesson back in 2009 and 2015. Again, we graduated third grade three times, but we're not stupid.

JO: Okay, so is it still, I think the average well from What I remember, I mean it's been a while, but wasn't it like 20 years that you didn't want to try to be holding wells that were pushing that 20 year span or are those still pretty active and producing well at that age? 

TE: Yeah, you're thinking vertical wells and vertical wells in the US when you... Basically a vertical well is a 7 1/2 inch diameter hole drilled down vertically in the grand in ground, it can only extract what porosity and permeability naturally allows those molecules to flow. What they did with the horizontal, they took that seven and a half inch hole, they go down to about where the reservoir is, they kick off in a curve, make like a, like a heel. They make a heel and then what they do is they go out one, two, three miles. A single horizontal well can be equivalent to 200 to 400 vertical wells of exposure.

JO: Wow.

TE: So wells that used to produce 100,000 barrels of oil in 20 years, we're getting 100,000 barrels in 12 months. Some of these wells make 100,000 barrels in four months. And so the economics on these wells and the life expectancy is anywhere from 25 to 75 years. I'm in Wells in North Dakota in 2010, they told me last seven, eight years. They're still online after 16 years. In fact, they're going back in and cleaning out the well. They're almost producing one third of what they did 14 years ago. So, now the organic material in that reservoir is so thick, so abundant, and it's coming from a fairly tight rock that the amount of oil and gas that flows is a very consistent rate. But it's going to last 25 to 75 years. So I could literally take a million dollars, put it in oil and gas. I'll be getting checks until my great grandkids roll farts. And that's really kind of good news. It's a asset that keeps on lasting. I personally plan on selling zero my minerals. I don't care about 1031 back. I'm going to take money, put it in minerals, put in my portfolio my legacy asset.

TE: And I'll be making checks like the Hunt Brothers for the next 75 years. Here's why? From a geological and geographical concern, oil and gas only has fallen in one very specific spot. If you look at the map of the oil and gas basins, it's generally on the eastern side of the Rocky Mountains. So those tectonic plates slammed together over 100 million years. They all eroded all the dead trees and plants. And I was Went down to the basin, like the foothills of Colorado. And guess what the basins are there where the previous foothills were. That's where everything stacked. Thick sand, 5200, 500 foot thick. And that's where all the dead organic material is. That used to be the worst place to drill because vertically you wanted everything on the high spot. Like a sponge, the earth pushed down and everything went to the high spot. They never thought that nice thick kind of unratty looking sand in the foothills would work. They went out and drilled and go, oh my God, it's full of oil. We had no idea. And we can turn that bit sideways and go one or two miles. Boom, we solved the only gas problem the United States through technology.

TE: And now you're talking about these basins, these foothills off the Rockies. Billions of barrels and trillions of cubic feet of gas. We really haven't even touched the surface of it yet, with zero dry holes. In 10 years or less, we change the entire economy of the United States and energy. That's why President Trump says drill baby, drill. The only reason why we won't go to 100% production of fossil fuel is what's going to happen in the Middle East. We no longer buy oil from Saudi or Russia or anybody else. We're talking global economic collapse, we're talking war in the Middle east, nobody's going to protect Saudi, etc. So, you almost have this political element says we got to get to a certain level of energy independent. I doubt they ever let us get to 100% par using our own oil and gas because there'll be complete global chaos. What are you going to do, make glass out of all that sand? I don't think so.

JO: So quick summary. My clients, they sell their investment property, we roll it in with you, they get mailbox money every month. End of the year, they get a tax statement that they give their accountant.

TE: 1099. That's it, 1099.

JO: Yeah. They get the 1099 they're never having to deal with, "Oh, the water heater needs to be replaced. Oh, the dishwasher's not working properly." It's just sit back, relax, go travel the world, collect your mailbox money.

TE: Justin, here's what I found the biggest problem. Type A investors, farmers, ranchers, engineers, bankers. You know what the problem is? It's a boring investment. It's boring. You buy it, you can't control it, you can't change it, you can't predict it. You just collect your check every month. I own so much minerals it's crazy. And it's like I'm back here like a pin up dog in a cage going what do I do? There's nothing to do. You've got the largest oil companies in the world. So, here's the way I look at it, simple math, watch. There's 565 drilling rigs in the United States drilling on land, not offshore. Right. Every oil company that knows the very most, they have the best engineers jobs. Every month they pick the next 565 best locations in the country to drill. There's 200 million acres covering these basins. They're only developing about 100,000 acres a month. If that's true, all I have to do is buy the minerals under those locations or know from 40 years experience where they're going to move them. And right now we have, we have the best location where they're going to drill next, the highest activation.

TE: Because why 40 years a decades told us where to buy and how to buy. So the biggest thing you're going to have is your farmers and ranchers and guys have been doing these lands. Go say yeah, you're going to be bored out of your, you're going to put $2 million off that last sale on that 1031 of this and Troy's going to send you a check 12 times in a 1099. You're going to go now what do I do? I don't know, go, go buy you a beach house. I can't tell you what to do, but this is a great way to protect your assets. Virtually no chance in my view of loss of capital and checks for the next 25 to 75 years. This is what some of the wealthiest people in the country are doing right now. They're all buying minerals.

JO: Well, I love it man. I love getting educated. I love having kind of more tools in my toolbox that I can tell my clients about. And so Troy, thanks for joining us today man and educating us on mineral right investments. The RLI members are always looking for new ways to get educated on the best ways to advise their clients. And you're certainly helping us with that. So where should folks go if they have questions about this to reach out to you? 

TE: All right, short answer, they go to eckardenterprises.com but when they get there, they need to look at Eckard Insights, okay. It's our app. You sign up to the app now, you have thousands of hours worth of videos and training and education on 1031, everything else. Just by signing up doesn't commit you anything. But it says now you are have access to all that education information. You can watch videos to your eyeballs pop out, but you also have the ability to say, hey, I'm interested in looking at some current portfolios or I want to see some trackers. I want to see what's going on. You click that button and we'll show you all you want. We're not high pressure. Like I said, 99% of all of our businesses, all inbound referrals and clients sending their families, brothers, cousins, etc. So we're not high pressure. We have no commission salesmen. We have seven wealth managers. So when you come to that app, it's about educating you and teach you so that way you learn and you know, then you can make a very simple, very passive decision if this is something that fits your portfolio. So eckardenterprises.com look at Eckard Insights, sign up and rock and roll. Then it's up to you to, it's up to you to lose the opportunity to be in minerals because otherwise we're here to help you.

JO: Well, I'll definitely check it out. So that's Eckard, E-C-K-A-R-Denterprises.com.

TE: Yes sir.

JO: Excellent. Listeners if you're looking to gain more expertise on land real estate topics, be sure to check out the RLI blog. Follow us on social media and of course, tune in for upcoming episodes of the Voices of Land podcast.

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